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February 27, 2012
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Plagiarizzzzm Article: Food for Thought

Journal Entry: Mon Feb 27, 2012, 12:52 PM


I found an interesting Comipress article. A Tradition in Plagiarism. > [link]

Some may think it goes unseen, but most fans do have that little "Ah-ha" moment when someone exactly copies their favorite manga scenes *or* anime scenes. It affects how they view artists, too. True, most people won't take the time to call attention to it, but they will remember what an artist does, and continue to scrutinize that artist's work, possibly forever.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen paneling and illustrations copied from popular series like Bleach or Naruto, but with the faces and clothes of the artist's OCs. This is still copying, and most people will recognize this. Even in Japan, things like this get pointed out and the artists get in in trouble or fired. Here across the ocean, we may not think about it as much as we should sometimes. I know dA has a lax policy on such things, but I thought it'd make for interested conversation and maybe help us all to remember and value our integrity.

2. I think influence is ok. I realize there is a whole lot of gray area here. Art *lives* in the gray area. Copying poses does not really equal breaching artists integrity all of the time. After all, there are things put out there with the express purpose of being reference. Some stuff is classical, some stuff is public domain... Sometimes, people just sit the same way, or jump into the air in a similar fashion. People *can* and *do* assume similar poses in everyday life. Some stuff is "stock" posture, as in modeling. Many models will assume the same poses. But when it comes to comic spreads, there is something very obvious when one chooses to copy entire spreads on multiple occasions...

I guess the safest thing is, if one feels that something accidentally bears too strong a resemblance to something else, redo it. Take your own resource images. That way, even if you get accused of something, you have your own stash of reference photos to back yourself up. Go to theaters, parks, and ball games. Bribe your tall male friend to go on the school stage and act like William Duberfort while you lay on your belly and get that perfect upwards angle! You don't have to travel far. People and environments are everywhere, and cameras are relatively cheap nowadays. Even your cell phones come equipped with basic cameras. Get shots of people in action. If you use a resource image from elsewhere, get permission, use royalty-free, or buy the stock image rights to draw it. Photographers have to make a living, too. I begged some of my friends to take London photographs for me. Anthony and Silvia came to my aid. (I really owe them a lot). But I also bought tons of Corel royalty-free stock to reference. I buy tons of reference of actual places all over the world so I can attempt to make original compositions and use my own imagination made up of all the things I'm exposed to rather than snagging layouts or anime scenes. Watch NatGeo. Watch the travel channel. Expose yourself to architecture... We can only try our best. Sometimes, influence happens, and in some cases, mild coincidences do occur. But if we keep our honesty and integrity, people will hopefully respect us and support us.

We don't wanna wind up like This. People even notice when artists lift entire scenes. Some of the stuff I see on this site I disagree with, no doubt, but that's probably because I've collected SO many Japanese animation reference books. Some of the stuff on here IS from the basic reference manuals, really, and I wouldn't find it copying. (I don't agree w/the entire site.)

There are tons of animation manuals produced in Japan, which are made with the express purpose of being reference for animators (and thus comickers). And Hell knows, if I can get my hands on animation reference, I'm sure as heck many mangaka have them. (Pose Reference books and how-to sequence motions for sports, etc). Like the basic "slap a character," here. In my opinion, that one isn't copying, because the entire thing is laid out in reference books in a similar fashion. Repeatedly. It's in basic paneling books. On the other hand, some stuff is just obvious. Riiiiiight. Some things, others might think of as basic shoujo spreads, but people really care about these sort of things.

Again, I don't think all the poses are copied on this site in particular. Some of the things, like the video at the ends, are jokes! XD BUT. When artists do entire scenes and well-known illustrations, someone is bound to notice. Alluding to something in a creative, fun way can be considered homage, I think, but sometimes, copying is just copying. Especially if it's done a lot. Just something to be aware of. ^^ I think it would be a bad habit to fall into. I thought it was an interesting article anyway!

--All images from Comipress Article: A Tradition in Plagiarism ([link]

It was written in 2007 but is still relevant, I think. ^^

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:iconspacedonkey:
~SpaceDonkey Mar 1, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Those are certainly some interesting examples, and some were just do dead pan ridiculous that I could hardly bare it, how dare they mock my Blade of the Immortal with that dribble! I would say that in general, if someone sees a pose they like, and then uses it while putting theyre own twist into it I have no intention of holding it against them. But some of the examples given were just sortive sad, like how can your story even flow properly if all you are using is someone elses panels, that doesnt even make sense. As for me, I have a very very small selection of referance stuff, most of which is from books specifically placed for reference. Now if only I ever remembered to look at it when I was drawing my stuff might actually look better <_<;
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:iconloominate:
*LOOMinate Mar 1, 2012  Student Interface Designer
Blade of the Immortal was one of the first mangas I owned, so that one hit particularly hard. T_T Like ooowch. >_>; I agree with you. It's hard to panel freely if your nose is stuck in someone else's book.
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:iconvervain-vanity:
Mood: Bewildered ~Vervain-Vanity Feb 28, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Ahh I remember that article. It's sort of flabbergasting to read, you'd think they'd at least try to be subtle about it *coughCROSSHUNTERcough*.

I really wish DA wasn't so lax on the obvious copy jobs.. But the site is so big, it's unreasonable to expect anything to be done about it.. Though, IMO, banning bases would help.

...Now that you mentioned it, I could really do with a book on basic panelling. ;goes to add one to shopping list;
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:iconloominate:
*LOOMinate Feb 28, 2012  Student Interface Designer
Hi, Vervain! I don't believe we've spoken much. Yeah, I'm not against influence, I'm really not! I think we live in a big wide world where we thankfully influence each other and creativity "goes round and round and round" like a giant flame being fanned! But yeah, on the other hand, for those obvious ones.... It seems sad somehow. I don't know how to say. When entire chunks from comics gets copied like that, it seems like the person is preying on the other's hard work, so it was a sad article to read. I had never heard of Cross Hunter before now. I thought it was parody when I saw it.

I could do with ten million. Or having a personal kidnapper to go and get people of my liking to give one-on-on! That would be niiiceeee... ;3
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:iconvervain-vanity:
Mood: Cheerful ~Vervain-Vanity Mar 1, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
We haven't, we haven't. That would be my ineffectiveness of being able to social network online in any way shape or form.

Yes! It's just like preying. It defeats the purpose of creating your own work in my opinion. Why go to all the effort to find a panel to help you work out the perspective or angle of something and then just lift it entirely? It's sort of counter productive , but it must be a bloody easy sort of habit to get into.

If it was a parody, it'd almost be brilliant x x~

And if we're getting on the topic of what we could do with. I could do with a never ending supply of coffee beans and my own private islan-- no, my own private coun-- no. My own planet. Filled with coffee plantations and I would be the king and live in a castle and only shows that I like would be shown on tv and there would be a whole channel of nothing but Judge Judy and nobody could complain about it because they're all too busy working in my coffee plantations and they should be grateful that I don't desire to have a personal kidnapper to go kidnap people of my liking for vaguely suggestive purposes.
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:iconloominate:
*LOOMinate Mar 6, 2012  Student Interface Designer
That's fine. I'm pretty anti-social, too. Sometimes I wind up thinking about people an' stuff, and then I think I've commented when I haven't! >> Urgh.

But yeah. This is just one of the things about comics and art, huh? I guess we'll all have to deal with such things, unfortunately.

And *laughs* Pfft, yeah. That's a creative fantasy there!
Reply
:icontriaelf9:
*TriaElf9 Feb 27, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
I used to draw scenes from manga that I liked, but only for me and only for practice. It's a really good way to feel the flow of a page by seeing how someone else did it. That being said, you're right.

I think there is a line though. Like, those ones copied from DBZ and Blade of the Immortal were like, wow, exact. But then there was the case of the artist of Death note suing the artist of D Grayman for drawing a picture of a guy with his hand outstretched and there was a hole in his hand and he was sucking something up. It ended up being a huge annoying fight between the two. Of course, my only thought was "hey, MIROKU (inuyasha) was doing that pose WAY before you guys got your own series". Some poses are standard, like, if you have a guy with a hand who sucks things up, there are a limited number of poses to do with that. Plus, like you said, they probably have ref books that everyone uses.

It took me years to get myself to use references, since I thought it was "cheating". I do tend to feel better if I can get there myself, but I know that, for example, I can't draw dogs very well. So I look around for pictures of dogs that help me know how a dog moves, and then I go into drawing. And I think it's really helped my art to do stuff like that ^_^
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:iconloominate:
*LOOMinate Feb 28, 2012  Student Interface Designer
Yes, yes. I think it's a very personal thing. And certainly, it can be for learning. I think in the end the line comes to down to whether or not artists are preying upon others (each other). It has nothing to do with readers somuch as it is artist to artist, perhaps. And if they're getting paid, of course. Commercial...ness certainly matters a lot! Yeah, I haven't seen a whole lot on the D. Gray Man versus Death Note thing, personally, because I haven't looked into it. I honestly didn't know it was an issue till I read that. But what was in this article was the least convincing of all of them for me...

And yes! I agree! When I thought about the hand thing you mentioned, Vampire Hunter D. came to mind. That little face/mouth on his hand that sucks in energy. ^^ Ah, I miss the old days...

I never had the issue with reference. My uncle was an artist, and he was always like, "Taking a trip to NY to get cities for meh superhero shots!" Photography is an art, too. So when you go out to get your own reference, I think that is special as well. I always enjoyed reading my fave artists' harrowing tales of taking trips to get reference. Saki Hiwatari comes to mind. :D Of course, our EYES are our primary tools as artists, and that's what I've always tried to do the most: watch things and try to figure out how they work. I would stay after and watch the sports teams practice and do little doodles, not caring how crappy they looked or even looking at the page sometimes... Even if I didn't get it right, it was always worthwhile and kinda relaxing... I'm sure everyone feels the same on that, though. :P

Oh, and they do have quite a lot of reference indeed, indeed. I wonder if you could find some of them since you're over there. I'd have to look it up, but it's Pose Reference series. I don't know what its title is in Japanese. (Sorry!)
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:icontriaelf9:
*TriaElf9 Feb 29, 2012  Professional Digital Artist
Oh yeah, totally.

OH MAN, Vampire Hunter D!! TOTALLY forgot that! AHAH, oh maaaan, nostalgia.

I think that I was so determined to go at the art thing on my own for so long that I just didn't get the right advice until too late, and I'm still learning each and every day. I wish I had time to just go out and sketch >_<

I got a really awesome tone reference book that shows different ways to use tones for different moods and different strengths of moods. It's really awesome and is helping me be more adventurous with tones. Oooh, if you find out what the title is, I'll have to look into it for sure ^_^
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:iconloominate:
*LOOMinate Mar 4, 2012  Student Interface Designer
NOSTALLLLGIA! :3

Interesting.... I'll def try to find it on amazon.jp. Then you could see the Japanese title for it. :3
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